If you think those resisting genocide are fascists

Don't try black propaganda here, not in any way did I claim that. You are ignoring the structures of Gazan orgs and society, you are talking without investigating and you are disturbing. I recommend you disengage.

Palestinians fighting for their survival are not reactionary

If you think that then you aren't a Marxist. Of course within Gazan society and Hamas you have reactionaries and reactionary actions. Are all? No. Plenty of groups that are or were active in Gaza aren't reactionary. Read Marx's https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/18th-brumaire/

to first check who at an Israeli festival is a settler and who isn't before

This is what the RAF did with the kidnapping of the Landshut flight. Which was a problem as some Germans did select people for being Jewish/non Jewish. But yes, if you do stuff like that you have to discriminate in any case.

However what you do tell, too, is that killing the ravers (and taking them hostage), is okay in any case as corollary. Rojava was able to fight Isis more targeted than that. The PKK of old did target more focused, as was Mao's and Enlai's actions.

There are virtually no completely US made products anymore. But in any case any car you buy that is completely US made is a commodity of the kind I mention. That is more than comparable to a flight. What you want to say is: I find it acceptable to targeted kill hundreds of ravers outside the occupied territory in Palestine, including tourists, Israeli Arabs and alike.

What I wrote wasn't the cheapest option but for cars the cheapest US option is comparable and you are aware that you are not in general having an as principled stance as you give it now.

Taking hostages is fine, and wtf are you supposed to do if you take parents hostage? Just leave the children there in the middle of a war zone alone?

Israel is small. You can leave the children and the videos of the kids show that the children are not protected, they are hit with sticks and batons and insulted as Jews. Besides that, yes. Those kids are not Tsarist kids. Save your gray propaganda for good goals. You can also find a video in which parents are killed and a child is taken. Or children that are killed. For the outcry that a targeted and thus killed journalist by IDF forces took this ignores that there is a strategic level of Hamas which obviously encouraged what happens, as it is wide spread and communicated via established Hamas video channels and thus shown, it also got an individual vengeance and revenge component.

The actions of Hamas do show their regressive reactionary nature and that the solidarity for socialist groups in Israel is not existent within them. What we know now, too, is also that it doesn't seem to have been a unified operation, meaning that the PFLP and other Marxist groups within Gaza are not really having impact on the strategic operations or are shut out completely.

This means that critical solidarity ought to be critical. If you do a large incursion like that you really argue that shooting young ravers and killing some after taking them hostage, is the best use of your short lived incursion? In any case I have yet to have seen text based Marxist reasoning which isn't vibes based or goes beyond "national liberation justifies any violence".

What is the aim here is to say any person - which includes plenty of Israeli Arabs (at least 20% of the population), also some who were at the rave - outside of Gaza and West Jordan is a legitimate aim to be killed, tortured, (sexually) assaulted, kidnapped. The terror of the guillotine and the committee for hygiene was more targeted and more in line with progressive politics than that. The "no excuse for the terror" doesn't mean it is arbitrary terror, it is focused on revolutionary goals. They also could've had Marxist and pre Marxist reasoning. The operation in Palestina and Israel was not one of national liberation with a class based analysis, but one in which there are people assigned as oppressing colonialists (everyone at the rave i.e. who wasn't coming from Gaza).

The goal of course is to weaken Israel's tourism industry, to unify power within Gaza, to divide Israel and Saudi Arabia and have hostages to do prisoner swaps. Though it is somewhat unlikely that this nearly 60 year old practice will work as before with the current right wing government in Israel and the lack of current good will. It did strengthen unity in Israel.

Targeting tourists at a rave on stolen land next to an open air prison that holds the rightful stewards of that land is ok

Please give me Marxist text backing for your position.

This is a stance that would mean that any person buying US/UK/French/Iranian/Turkish/South Korean/Philipine/Maroccon/Brazilian/Mexican products deserves to die.

It is a moralistic idealist claim, not a Marxist one.

Abducting kids is not okay, hitting them is not okay, sexual violence is not okay, targeting tourists at a rave is not okay.

Is there any evidence that Hamas have been committing sexual violence?

Yes. Even inside of Gaza i.e. against some people deemed gay, some "traitors". Within torture it is mostly not complementary with sexual violence. So within this conflict there will be some cases, the question will be if it is widespread policy (unlikely), if it is "lack of oversight+patriarchy+spaces without law+antisemitism", etc.

However in any case the limit for certain types of violence and certain targets of violence is important. During the last day we did see that plenty on this site aren't really differentiating or equating everyone in Israel as guilty and therefore fine to be killed (without making clear if they mean targeted, or as collateral damage i.e. car bombings that kill civilians in front of military bases).

The line of the ANC's MK was different in that regard that not all violence and all targets were seen as acceptable or justified. So the site's line is more regressive than feminist Marxists ought to be.

*Edit: Hamas did shit the bed in this operation. *

The Turkish attacks since 4th of October against Syria / Rojava are basically invisible in media. The support of some who focus on Palestine and ignore Syria/Rojava is not a principled stance.

Funny but incorrect quip. The German imperial project ended in the genocide against Ovaherero and Nama, with the aim to exterminate them completely. The Jewish genocide in the "Occupied Territories" is aimed not at physical extermination of all the people in Gaza. In any case the actions and deeds really don't have to be compared in terms of "significance" (as moralistic judging term). They can and ought to be understood in themselves and the similarities in practices can be looked at. Equating the actions of Israel and Nazi Germany is diminishing the holocaust. You can critique the state without doing that.

The material base and the white supremacist super structure in terms of the German or South African project are much different to the Israeli one if you look at before 1945, or between then and the 1973 war. However I would wish for as principled stances against the USA and that is sorely lacking.

The project was doomed partly because Soviet Jews already had a place in their communities more or less.

Since the worst antisemitism of the Tsar was ended with the October revolution and the years after it, that rings as if it could be true.

unless Israel lifts the blockade.

Or Egypt. Israel is not able to control what gets in and out of Gaza if Egypt opens its border. Which would make lifting the blockade more likely.

Thanks

@CARCOSA@hexbear.net could you pin this or a similar thread for the next couple of days please?

• Air Flight Tracker Tel Aviv airport https://www.flightradar24.com/airport/tlv (It is heavily disrupted, flights are diverted)
• https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/7/israel-palestine-escalation-live-news-barrage-of-rockets-fired-from-gaza
• https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/7/palestinian-group-hamas-launches-surprise-attack-on-israel-what-to-know
• https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/7/sirens-warn-of-rockets-launched-towards-israel-from-gaza-news-reports

Mohammed Deif, a senior Hamas military commander, said earlier that the rocket fire marked the start of “Operation Al-Aqsa Flood”, and he called on Palestinians everywhere to fight the Israeli occupation.

“We’ve decided to say enough is enough,” Deif said as he urged all Palestinians to confront Israel. “This is the day of the greatest battle to end the last occupation on Earth,” he said in an audio message.

Which if we link to it will get us 100% targeted by who do that anyhow already.

Marx famously was known for not being pedantic about use of terms and phrases.

Israel can't have Hitlerism, though Fascist thoughts and elements of Ethnonationalist support are not a rare thing. Being more or less clear with terms matters as it is a necessary differentiating element for material conditions and intersectional pressures that happen. Antifascism that we do for decades also means to not equate Nazism with things that aren't Nazism.

It is a problem when Israel and Nazi Germany are equated. It is also antisemitic and this community tries to be both (un)critically supportive of liberation fights (by less than progressive forces instead of only ideal Marxists) in Palestine and the Levant and not to ignore antisemitism.

I do really did the outdated voice recording of Lenin in regards to Anti Jewish pogroms. Lenin's real voice reading the speech

Plenty of decisions of the central committee and the politburo during that time were aimed at securing the Soviet Union, which includes actions against reactionaries and white army terrorist leftovers especially in border regions and those in which power couldn't be projected well into. However the Jewish Autonomous Oblast, while having a slapping flag that would make our 2SLGBTQ* comrades proud, never was home to more than 20 000 people labeling as Jews, who remained a minority and who were also not as much in political control as the name implies.

More Jews fought in the Red army than lived in the JAO.

Is for you fascism and nazism / hitlerism the same? And similar to settler colonialism? Israel's genocidal settler colonialism is not Nazism. It isn't Hitlerism either. Though Ukraine's military political complex is filled with Fascists and (Neo-)Nazis.

How do you mean that?

Does really read like someone writing their sociology thesis about us.

At a festival where there is also political input the Content is a tent in which political content is brought to the masses by the masses. I liked that pun. However at a less vanilla festival the content was the place where you could have nice cuddles and just chill out with good vibes.

Only if you wear colonial british western garb and ties are you respactable.

Wearing stuff that aligns to the working class or with anti colonial movement from states that are oppressed it is bad optics.

Is shit I did hear too often.

The Soviets did kill quite a few experts when they were too corrupted. It was of course a strategic decision how to act towards them, but it wasn't as easy as in the USA.

The colonies didn't really matter for the economy in Germany. It did matter for concentrating capital in certain parts of the capitalist class though.

IN my city there was a case in which cops did watch a joint for a couple of days multiple days per week. They noticed that the amount of real customers was much much lower than the earnings reported. So they took quite a bit of money and had that money laundering charge.

bour geo is i.e.

B(ro) our Geo (like a globe/world) is International Exploitation (of the working class)!

Is how I remember it.

This was a good tradle. I was a bit lost and quite intrigued at the quasi non existent weapons export with 20 something billion petrol exports.

That movie really appealed to fascists quite a bit. Know one who via fan boards for it did smooch up to the the right scene in my city somewhat.

First of thanks for your extensive response. I do applaud you for trying to figure out why you are an other opinion than a felt majority here. Will read it in a bit completely.

As a cop in a police union, your job is to enforce the law level-handedly, not to decide what the law should be.

I would argue that is not the job of the police. Philosophy Tube's Abigail Thorne did a video "How the police makes the law" about something to related to that.

The idea you write is somewhat of a liberal one that assigns values to the "state of law" that is a good deal class warfare by the bourgeosie against the working class and marginalized sub strata. If you mean that in a Socialist state the police would act in accordance with law, you wouldn't be quite wrong, but some transitory aspects would remain. However the law would be somewhat different in that it then used as a tool in the class warfare against capitalists. How many people responsible for the financial crisis were harrased by the police or jailed? How many - if you see China is socialist - were jailed there?
I guess that could be somewhat what you mean with governmental position?

From what I can tell, that isn't really the case in Vancouver because of the extremely large immigrant minority population in the city and the relatively robust system of police oversight in the OPCC.

I would argue is not quite as good as you think it is, while it is an liberal improvement to the status quo. My question would be do you have contact to affected and what do they and experts in the regard, as well as Marxists in your region say about the police?

but I do think police unions should be evaluated from their role of protecting workers' rights and maintaining worker integrity rather

Which they don't. However I do agree that evaluation of Vancouver police unions should be done twofold, analytical due to their position, structure and function in the class warfare and general police critique and also in its specificity in regards to Vancouver.

There are a couple of theoretical texts and articles that would apply

CW

If it makes it better a school friend of mine did join the military and became an officer. During one lecture about China and the countries structure they heavily leaned on the "mandate of Heaven" and argued that bad economy means people think the heaven doesn't favour the leaders / CPC anymore and there might be a window for "economic reforms".

Rather than thinking material reality matters for people the Westerners hold up concepts that are at best orientalist caricatures of times long past. He came back from that workshop and was having a hard case of brains.

What is poverty really? The problem with poverty reduction is that you have to have someone who defines what poverty is!

Union of the United Capitalists and Landowners.

Not every association to support a group is a union. Yours is one way, but we could also say that unions in the sense of labour union / Gewerkschaft means something different. Both ways and likely others are possible.

That might be true in relative terms, it is also likely showing that you are in a somewhat privileged position, does ignore their structural impact (i.e. forced evictions actions against houseless and soon to be unhoused comrades, immigrants etc.), but also ignores historic context, their support and enforcement of colonial actions, against single mothers, against neurodivergent people, against LGBTQ comrades and them guarding their fellow cops.

It might also be unaware of how the Canadian riot cops act at demonstrations.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/g20-protesters-clash-with-vancouver-police-1.906581 As example. Some of our queer and alike allies do not want police at their protests: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/no-more-police-at-vancouver-pride-as-organizers-join-call-to-defund-vpd-1.5607249

CW

So it might be interesting to write in a spoiler tag (if it gets long as to not de-rail this thread), why you have that sentiment and try to seek out some voices contradicting your point of view. For example in my city the police regularly jails people for not having tickets in public transport. Multiple hundreds, often people without the means or abilities to deal with the fines are effectively put into a debt tower. Would you find the police is "that bad" then, or when they use force to deport a person, by entering their house at night, restricting them violently and then putting them on a plane with a for them uncertain destination?

I mean my question honestly. Would you profit from tone indicators telling if something is a joke?

Hexbear has a left unity approach meaning that RyanGosling's comment is a joke built on re-hashing bad takes from propagandized USA citizens.

Have you considered not going into debt?

I bet American supermarkets were better for the elites than soviet markets. That's kind of the point.

Friends of mine did regularly break out in tears in Western supermarkets. Mostly cause we didn't have enough money to buy what we needed. I however only cried seldomly!

I was working in a workshops store room once and did order stuff so that you could easily access it, but also that you see how many are still there and if you have to re-order (so not facing if two lines were next to each other). One of my bosses was really angry at that and argued it looks nicer if it is done the other way. This did cost plenty of time we couldn't use for maintenance and led to equipment breaking down more often. There also were the days in which the bosses system (who also undid the markings we did for low stock count) lead to stuff we needed not being available. Yet he did pay two months salary of us for training for himself and conferences to know the latest in storage logistics and such and came back from them shit faced.

Capitalists, owners and bosses often work against the interests of the company, cherishing their control over other people's time for useless tasks. However unless in D/s this is involuntary and without consent this is a relationship that has to be surpassed.

The GDR imported some food items from Vietnam and other fraternity socialist countries. Those items were often not so well stocked in the FRG. You can ask around in urban centers after gentrification today would they rather have bananas only rarely but a flat that is theirs or bananas but no flat?